Enabling QoS breaks router. Software bug or wrong settings?

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darussiaman
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Joined: 30 May 2007
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Location: Arizona, USA

PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 4:22    Post subject: Enabling QoS breaks router. Software bug or wrong settings? Reply with quote
Hi guys,

I searched the forum a bit but didn't find specifically this issue or symptoms. I tried enabling QoS and prioritizing a single device (my housemate's PS4) by MAC Priority. I left the Services Priority and Netmask Priority sections untouched.

After enabling it, the router started behaving oddly. First, it became almost impossible to log into its web interface. The wifi also became... unreliable. It seemed like if I stayed on the wifi network I would still be able to get online but if I disconnected and tried to switch to the other network (dual band router), or even tried to reconnect to the same one again, it would often not work. I would get an error saying I could not connect to this network.

In short, it seemed like everything about the router became more or less effed up. I tried rebooting it multiple times, and tweaking the settings by changing the priority level and the Uplink and Downlink numbers, and it would work again for a bit and then collapse again. As soon as I gave up and disabled QoS, everything went right back to normal immediately, and my wifi was rock-solid again!

My router is a Netgear WNDR3700v3. I'm using an old build: DD-WRT v24-sp2 (06/08/12) big - build 19342.

(I can't figure out the other details, "K26 or k24. Newd, nv60 or nv64", which is supposed to be required in posts, according to the Peacock thread. My apologies but I can't find that info.)

Were there known problems with QoS with that build? Do the symptoms I described sound like a bug or am I doing something wrong with the settings?

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flyzipper
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Joined: 21 Feb 2016
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:41    Post subject: Reply with quote
I use QoS in the manner you've described for my Xbox (on a Netgear R7000). It's working well for me.

Did you follow this guidance as a starting point?

https://www.dd-wrt.com/wiki/index.php/Quality_of_Service

Can you post a screenshot of your QoS settings?

Your throughput while QoS is enabled will be negatively impacted, and your router is old-ish so that's a double whammy. What internet speeds do you need to support?

Perhaps most importantly, I'd update to newer version of DD-WRT.
darussiaman
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Joined: 30 May 2007
Posts: 94
Location: Arizona, USA

PostPosted: Sat Feb 10, 2018 17:09    Post subject: Reply with quote
Hi!

No, I didn't. I actually just googled some stuff and came upon this article:
https://www.howtogeek.com/75660/the-beginners-guide-to-qos-on-your-router/

I figured it should be fine since it's written specifically for DD-WRT.

My settings page is attached below. (Except of course I had it enabled at the top.) So you think it's most likely that this was a DD-WRT bug, that will go away if I update to the new version?

Thanks!



QoS settings.png
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QoS settings.png



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flyzipper
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 0:13    Post subject: Reply with quote
The settings look fine.

It's been a while, but I seem to recall HFSC worked better than HTB on older hardware, so you could try that.

You could also try deleting your MAC rule, and enabling QoS to see how things behave. If they work without the MAC rule, try adding an IP mask rule (/32 for a single host).

Lastly, if you're comfortable updating firmware, I'd really suggest running a newer version (yours is >5 years old).

https://www.dd-wrt.com/wiki/index.php/Netgear_WNDR3700#v3

ftp://ftp.dd-wrt.com/betas/2018/02-08-2018-r34876/broadcom_K26/
native_tx
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Joined: 26 Feb 2014
Posts: 169
Location: Texas

PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 7:40    Post subject: Reply with quote
How much bandwidth do you have, I ask that since your netgear is under powered, but although it should handle better with hfsc as flyzipper was suggesting, lookup the dd-wrt qos wiki and read over some tips to setting it up. on the picture looks like you have the K26, you could install the K3 and set up qdisc:sfq and packet scheduler:htb no ports needed when using htb, but then again pending on if you have allot of bandwidth you'll have to invest in a newer router capable of handling qos and all your network needs if you have or decide to invest in more bandwidth. For me dd-wrt is buggy if i set up qos I had used a linksys e3200, and belkin f7d4302. I had normally used the htb, fq_codel but that doesn't work for my routers hfsc and sfq or htb and sfq would work on some builds, but i haven't check for a couple of months now. Good luck
native_tx
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Joined: 26 Feb 2014
Posts: 169
Location: Texas

PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 7:46    Post subject: Reply with quote
native_tx wrote:
How much bandwidth do you have, I ask that since your netgear is under powered, but although it should handle better with hfsc as flyzipper was suggesting, lookup the dd-wrt qos wiki and read over some tips to setting it up. on the picture looks like you have the K26, you could install the K3 and set up qdisc:sfq and packet scheduler:htb no ports needed when using htb, but then again pending on if you have allot of bandwidth you'll have to invest in a newer router capable of handling qos and all your network needs if you have or decide to invest in more bandwidth. For me dd-wrt is buggy if i set up qos I had used a linksys e3200, and belkin f7d4302. I had normally used the htb, fq_codel but that doesn't work for my routers hfsc and sfq or htb and sfq would work on some builds, but i haven't check for a couple of months now. Good luck


Quick edit,
50000 over 8000 i do believe that your router should still be able to handle those numbers at least, I know my routers can they all have a similar cpu speed, I have symmetrical connection of 50/50 so maybe update and experiment.
darussiaman
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Joined: 30 May 2007
Posts: 94
Location: Arizona, USA

PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 2:07    Post subject: Reply with quote
Okay so I was pretty much set on upgrading to the newest build of K26, as flyzipper suggested. But then I became skeptical when I found this thread:

https://www.dd-wrt.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=309302&highlight=wndr3700

Apparently N-only mode is broken on that newer build, although it's not the same build as the current newest one. (N-only works fine on the build I have now.) I thought that having N-only provides the best speed, but now I tried searching it, and I actually can't find a good source that explains this. I see people on forums saying that it's actually better to use mixed mode. Anyone know of an article from a tech site that explains this?

***

Anyway, instead of upgrading builds, I tried using HFSC, and it definitely worked better... But it still did not really work. The network was unstable and would work on and off.

So you think maybe lowering those download/upload numbers might help?

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flyzipper
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Joined: 21 Feb 2016
Posts: 504

PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 6:16    Post subject: Reply with quote
The wiki is a good source for recommended settings...

https://www.dd-wrt.com/wiki/index.php/Basic_Wireless_Settings#Wireless_Network_Mode

Recommended Setting: Mixed or NG-Mixed (2.4 GHz)

N-Only is broken on many units for some time (both bands) & still is, try to avoid using as there is minimal performance change from NG-Mixed -> N-Only if all you use is 802.11n clients for either of them.

Feel free to play with the QoS numbers (lower). My old e4200 could only achieve 35mbps with QoS enabled (if I recall correctly).
ian5142
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Location: Canada

PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 14:25    Post subject: Upgrade firmware Reply with quote
See this link before upgrading. This router is really easy to brick, not so easy to debrick: https://www.dd-wrt.com/wiki/index.php/Netgear_WNDR3700#v3

I would stick with a trailed mini build unless you require any of the features in a mega build.

Upgrade your router, make sure to reset to defaults and input all settings in manually (do not upload a backup file), you are coming from a very old build.

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Atheros:
Netgear R7800 x3 - WDS AP / station, gateway, QoS
TP-Link Archer C7 v2 x2 - WDS Station
TP-Link TL-WDR3600 v1 - WDS Station
TP-Link 841nd v8 - NU
D-Link 615 C1/E3/I1 x 7 - 1 WDS station
D-Link 825 B1 - NU
D-Link 862L A1 x2 - WDS Station
Netgear WNDR3700v2 - NU
UBNT loco M2 x2 - airOS

Broadcom
Linksys EA6400 - Gateway, QoS
Asus N66U - AP
Netgear WNDR3700v3 - not used
MediaTek
UBNT EdgeRouter X - switch
native_tx
DD-WRT User


Joined: 26 Feb 2014
Posts: 169
Location: Texas

PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 14:49    Post subject: Reply with quote
darussiaman wrote:
Okay so I was pretty much set on upgrading to the newest build of K26, as flyzipper suggested. But then I became skeptical when I found this thread:

https://www.dd-wrt.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=309302&highlight=wndr3700

Apparently N-only mode is broken on that newer build, although it's not the same build as the current newest one. (N-only works fine on the build I have now.) I thought that having N-only provides the best speed, but now I tried searching it, and I actually can't find a good source that explains this. I see people on forums saying that it's actually better to use mixed mode. Anyone know of an article from a tech site that explains this?

***

Anyway, instead of upgrading builds, I tried using HFSC, and it definitely worked better... But it still did not really work. The network was unstable and would work on and off.

So you think maybe lowering those download/upload numbers might help?


Look into dd-wrt qos wiki about setting up hfsc, understand how priority works and services work setting them up properly should give you better results plus while on the Qos tab look help, more on right that give you an ideal. Wireless you could look into the dd-wrt wiki
for some tips as mentioned by other members that require attention if upgrading to a mega build.
jwh7
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Joined: 25 Oct 2013
Posts: 2670
Location: Indy

PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 15:25    Post subject: Reply with quote
darussiaman wrote:
Apparently N-only mode is broken on that newer build, although it's not the same build as the current newest one. (N-only works fine on the build I have now.) I thought that having N-only provides the best speed, but now I tried searching it, and I actually can't find a good source that explains this. I see people on forums saying that it's actually better to use mixed mode. Anyone know of an article from a tech site that explains this?
Don't use the "Only" modes, use the *-mixed modes. The Only modes don't allow the driver to compensate for other networks.

This model can use k3x builds right? My wndr4000 is basically identical and I've only ever used k3x on it.

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# NAT/SFE/CTF: limited speed w/ DD # Repeater issues # DD-WRT info: FAQ, Builds, Types, Modes, Changes, Demo #
OPNsense x64 5050e ITX|DD: DIR-810L, 2*EA6900@1GHz, R6300v1, RT-N66U@663, WNDR4000@533, E1500@353,
WRT54G{Lv1.1,Sv6}@250
|FreshTomato: F7D8302@532|OpenWRT: F9K1119v1, RT-ACRH13, R6220, WNDR3700v4
darussiaman
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Joined: 30 May 2007
Posts: 94
Location: Arizona, USA

PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 2:36    Post subject: Reply with quote
Thanks, everybody. I will find some time to study the wiki about QoS and the other one for recommended wireless settings.

jwh7 wrote:

This model can use k3x builds right? My wndr4000 is basically identical and I've only ever used k3x on it.


The wiki for my v3 router states that yes, it can use those builds, if I upgrade from k26. Is there an advantage to using k3x?

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jwh7
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Joined: 25 Oct 2013
Posts: 2670
Location: Indy

PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 2:44    Post subject: Reply with quote
darussiaman wrote:
Is there an advantage to using k3x?
Offhand, there's SFE accelerated NAT (for gateways on build 33006+), much better USB support, much newer security/vulnerability fixes, repeater bridge works...

And the ladies dig it. Cool

_________________
# NAT/SFE/CTF: limited speed w/ DD # Repeater issues # DD-WRT info: FAQ, Builds, Types, Modes, Changes, Demo #
OPNsense x64 5050e ITX|DD: DIR-810L, 2*EA6900@1GHz, R6300v1, RT-N66U@663, WNDR4000@533, E1500@353,
WRT54G{Lv1.1,Sv6}@250
|FreshTomato: F7D8302@532|OpenWRT: F9K1119v1, RT-ACRH13, R6220, WNDR3700v4
flyzipper
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Joined: 21 Feb 2016
Posts: 504

PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 7:14    Post subject: Reply with quote
jwh7 wrote:
darussiaman wrote:
Is there an advantage to using k3x?
Offhand, there's SFE accelerated NAT...


On older hardware, you'll likely get better performance with k26...

https://www.stevejenkins.com/blog/2017/01/dd-wrt-k26-vs-k3x-vs-tomato-router-firmware-head-to-head-on-linksys-e4200/

... different router, but similar age. Actually, the conclusion of this test may be an option for OP... if you don't need DD-WRT, just run OEM firmware.

Plus, SFE accelerated NAT is disabled when QoS is enabled.

https://www.dd-wrt.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=310099
jwh7
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Joined: 25 Oct 2013
Posts: 2670
Location: Indy

PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 14:13    Post subject: Reply with quote
Yes, the SFE/QoS interaction is an important note. Smile Though I'd thought only the ingress was broken with SFE+QoS, and was fixed with changeset 33046. I don't use QoS on DD so didn't follow it closely. Perhaps this is for those that force them both via nvram.
flyzipper wrote:
On older hardware, you'll likely get better performance with k26...
To be clear, with QoS due to the aforesaid limitation, yes; but not for just K26 versus K3X SFE.

Depending on one's hardware and internet speed, it may be worth considering K3X+SFE over K26+QoS, if the router is a fairly significant bottleneck.

Also, for QoS on MIPS hardware, OpenWRT might be a better idea:
    https://openwrt.org/toh/start?dataflt%5BModel*%7E%5D=wndr3700
It doesn't have the SFE+QoS limitation, but the 5 GHz at least used to not work (b43 driver limitation). I've not tried it since I use pfSense x64, but am considering to, for my WNDR4000.

_________________
# NAT/SFE/CTF: limited speed w/ DD # Repeater issues # DD-WRT info: FAQ, Builds, Types, Modes, Changes, Demo #
OPNsense x64 5050e ITX|DD: DIR-810L, 2*EA6900@1GHz, R6300v1, RT-N66U@663, WNDR4000@533, E1500@353,
WRT54G{Lv1.1,Sv6}@250
|FreshTomato: F7D8302@532|OpenWRT: F9K1119v1, RT-ACRH13, R6220, WNDR3700v4
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